But Joshua had the final decision. 0 responses It was common knowledge. In addition, his own soldiers had to tell him, "David, you just don't have it anymore. This may have only been a couple of months later. If we were reading this quickly, and not really thinking about it, and not understanding God's own character, we might think that this says that God allows the guilt of sin to pass down three or four generations. One of them toward the end of this list is King David. Ezekiel 18:19-20 indicates that guilt for sin is not transferable, but the consequences can often touch several generations. Obviously, having seen what happened to Jericho and Ai, they knew God and Israel were serious. WebKing Saul later broke the treaty that Joshua had signed and attacked the Gibeonites. However, that is not the case. He was the king. He came at this as though he were guilty with Saul; that all Israelites were guilty with Saul and his house. The higher the vote, the further up an answer is. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. They made their dust-covered clothes to look worn and ragged as if they had been on the road for many days, even months. Something is wrong. WebThese lists are not concerned with the Gibeonites at Gibeon, but with the Benjaminite group which came to settle at Gibeon in the course of time. They had advance warning. So they answered Joshua and said, "Because your servants were clearly told that the LORD your God commanded His servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy all the inhabitants of the land from before you.". Share Of course, a part of it is being able to look at ourselves and see how dirty, nasty, and rotten we are, and saying, "There is no way that anybody could live in this world without sin; even God's beloved Son.". A snare is a trap. He was distracted. God is warning here that sin has consequences. It shows you just how far things had sunk in the land. He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. It was as if David earlier said, "Let's just get this out of the way. That is the bottom line. They had remembered it for 40 or 50 years. Why wasn't I told about this?" When this righteous ruler turned to God, the Lord showed him that arrogant error of his predecessor. Now it came to pass, when Adonizedec king of He could have done whatever he wanted. It does not seem so. He is able to judge justly. Then they replied, It was Saul who planned to destroy us, to keep us from having any place at all in Israel. We have to understand that the people of the land represent the things we need to overcomeour human nature and our problems; the world and its pulls to its ways; and Satan and all the ways that he tries to manipulate us. I also want you to see how warlike Saul was. At the time the Israelites under Joshua invaded the Promised Land of Canaan, most of the inhabitants rose up in arms against them. The children of Israel gathered and went across the Jordan River, and set up camp at Gilgal. Verse 1 did say that it was "Saul and his bloodthirsty house" who had massacred the Gibeonites. But Abishai the son of Zeruiah came to his aid, and struck the Philistine and killed him. If, in the event the Israelis ever came their way, they would be servants to the people of Israel. Jonathan and Saul led the Should the explanation in Genesis on how God created plants before the sun affect the understanding of creation? I know that is how I always read itas straight historyand I did not think about it very much. Christ says, Luke 21:34-35 "But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. Later, during a wasting famine, David, attempting a political rather than a righteous solution, yielded to the Gibeonites' request that descendants of Saul be hanged to avenge the slaughter. Here we find the Gibeonites demand, and King David counter demandsNOT. Instead, David brings back twice as many. When the Gibeonites heard that the other nations were going to attack them, they sent a message to Joshua and the people, Help! Go back with me to Deuteronomy 7 and see the instruction that God gave to Israel about how to deal with these kinds of people. Asked August 31 2013 These cagey enemies of God's people were destined to be destroyed, so they devised a simple, but clever scheme to deceive Israel in the hope of saving their own necks. So, he spared Agag, and he spared a lot of the good stuff. There was a great deal of turmoil in Israel leading up to this time. the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the There is less bloodshed, and there will not be much opportunity like in Gentile nations for these blood feuds to last for years and generations. Lets read about David avenging the Gibeonites in 2 Samuel 21:1-14: 1 Now there was a famine in the days of David for three years, year after year. And that day Joshua made them woodcutters and water carriers for the congregation and for the altar of the LORD, in the place which He would choose, even to this day. What should we get out of this? This poor man cried out, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles. There is a great deal more than what meets the eye. The angel of the LORD encamps all around those who fear Him, and delivers them. The person who commits a sin is guilty of that sin, and God punishes that person for that sin. He was not thinking spiritually. Oh, taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the man who trusts in Him! If we would go through Luke 21:7-12, we would see that Jesus gave His disciples indications of what would happen if the time of the end began. It was certainly alive and well in Israel. Then we have verses 34 through 36. A person dies for his own sins, not those committed by someone else, whether father, son, or black sheep uncle. So they fell, all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest. That is that he could have gone along with the Gibeonite's demands in order to get rid of seven possible contenders for his throne. David asked. It cut us off from God. What might he have done? Clarify They haven't been put in Kish's sepulcher yet. He did this "in his zeal for. Perhaps he thought, "Hmm. I do not know when God through Samuel stripped him of the kingdom. When God called Saul to be king, Israel was on the verge of collapse. During the time of the judges, the Israelites had repeatedly turned away, lea This is very, very important for this vignette in King David's life. The historical narrative of King David is drawing to a close. We still need some more background. Therefore, one of the first things that Joshua and the Israelites do is they allow a big problem to linger in their midst. So the king called the Gibeonites and spoke to them. And she did not allow the birds of the air to rest on them by day nor the beasts of the field by night. The LORD is near to those who have a broken heart, and saves such as have a contrite spirit. But certainly, David was. But, are these people telling the truth? WebThis points to their employment in the sanctuary; and possibly may shed some light on the massacre of the Gibeonites by Saul (2 Samuel 21:1). Saul also had sound state reasons for his action, for the Gibeonites were occupying an enclave in the very "No, we don't do things like that in Israel. A good answer provides new insight and perspective. God says very clearly that Israel was to conquer them, destroy them, and make no covenant with them. So, others besides Saul were guilty. WebDavid serves Saul with music on his harp Nov 24, 1025. Notice that I Kings begins not many chapters after this. He gives them exactly what they want, and look at what happens. Is that what happened?" fit into Creation? Or as the Gibeonites said Saul consumed them and tried to destroy them a people Israel had entered into a covenant with 400 years earlier. King Saul exhibited that hubris, that overweening pride in his own decisions and that unfounded confidence in his own good judgment that he brought certain and lasting disaster upon his own dynasty. They did not ask, "God, what should we do to these people, the Gibeonites? King David was probably huffing and puffing, "I can't lift this thing! King David was compelled to hand over his own people to the power of Israel's ongoing enemies. There were big problems, and one of them was the consequences and effects of Saul and his bloodthirsty house. But, very few people can relate to sinless perfection. And the LORD answered, "It is because of Saul and his bloodthirsty house, because he killed the Gibeonites." Much later, King Saul ignored this covenant of peace and killed some Gibeonites. The world's arsenal is growing daily in material strength and sophisticated intimidation. Yet, because of the long time that has passed since then until now, when the Gibeonites were asked to bring it up, how many of the guilty ones had died? He did not perform any miracle, or any other thing to show that He was happy with the way that things turned out. The Gibeonites actually lived only a few miles from Jericho, the Twelve Tribes' designated entry point to Palestine. Notice God declares that the bloodguilt was not just on Saul, but also his house. God has torn the kingdom from you. These are the two hints. That is not what it says here. There is not much wiggle room in all this. Now, turn to the episode of King David, which we introduced. They quailed at what they heard that Joshua and Israel had done at Jericho and Ai. And after that God heeded the prayer for the land. Therefore, this curse goes down until the gene pool is able to kick it outthree or four generations. As Christians living amidst spiritual famine, we dare not compromise with the culture around us. However, there was not. 3:6: "for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life"? Then Gibeon was a mile or two more to the north-northwest. Forty years, at least, has passed, and had they been involved in it back when Saul was still kinglet us say they were 18 to 20 years oldthese men involved in this massacre, should they still be alive, might be 60, 65, or even 70 years old. Only when the Gibeonites were under siege from a common enemy and were calling in the marker on their mutual aid treaty did the Israelites turn to God for counsel and advice. Please ensure your answer MEETS all our guidelines. HERALDS OF HOLOCAUST Jonathan. We are getting toward the end of King David's life. So the famine continued for another half a year. There is another thing that needs to be thrown out there as a possible scenario, and this would have been the very worst and lowest that David could have sunk to. The Bible implicitly hints at something which caused a feud which was settled only by the blood of Sauls descendants. I think he was distracted by all the cares of his office of being king. WebNow, when they heard that the Gibeonites had made a special treaty with the Israelites they got very angry. It is in II Samuel 21. SERIES INTRODUCTION 17 Then the children of Israel journeyed and came to their cities on the third day. There is no want to those who fear Him. Then David went and took the bones of Saul, and the bones of Jonathan his son, from the men of Jabesh Gilead who had stolen them from the street of Beth Shan, where the Philistines had hung them up, after the Philistines had struck down Saul in Gilboa. David represents usJoe Church Membertrue Christians in a time of spiritual famine, much like what Amos describes in Amos 8:11, with the famine of the word. No one killed king David. He died of old age, at the age of three score and ten (70 years). His son Solomon succeeded him. You might be thinking of King David is mentioned by name as a hero of faith. God took the initiative in this matter, by afflicting the nation of Israel with a famine because the house of Saul had put the Gibeonites to death. God told Joshua to get rid of all these foreigners in the land. And with what shall I make atonement, that you may bless the inheritance of the LORD?" Oh, fear the LORD, you His saints! We have an easier time identifying with the flawed, but heroic, Lancelot from the legends of King Arthur, because he is a lot more like ushe commits sin; he has faults. Without checking out their story; without surveying the geographical situation; most of all, without consulting the Lord and waiting for His guidance, Joshua went impulsively ahead and signed a binding, lasting agreement with the Gibeonites. Although the people of Israel had sworn to spare them, Saul had sought to strike them down in his zeal for the people of Israel and Judah. In verse 7 we see the only thing in the entire situation that was any good at all. Weba motive for Saul's attack on them. He just simply rolled over. The time had passed. Probably what happened was that they put them on the top of the hill at Gibeah, so that God in the Tabernacle could "see" the execution being done. Let his blood be on us and on our children., Perhaps the Gibeonites are a type of the inclusion of the gentiles Romans 9:22-24. [And the answer is] Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. That would be such a carnal thing to dojust let the Gibeonites kill seven of Saul's kids who could claim the Israelite throne and get them out of the way. This was history now. He will not relent. He then tells David that he can't marry Michal until he brings Saul 100 Philistine foreskins, thinking that David will definitely die in this attempt. And we bear the guilt with them for that. There were not very many of them left. King David, for example, made huge errors in judgment and committed colossal sins. WebThe biblical writer confirms this charge by stating that Saul tried to annihilate [ nkah, to inflict a dead blow] them (2 Sam. God punished Adam and Eve for their sin. 2Samuel 21:1, There is bloodguilt on Saul and on his house, because he put the Gibeonites to death.. In 2 Samuel 21, we read of the tragic repercussion that followed when King Saul didnt honor the covenant and murdered some Gibeonites. The Gibeonites presented themselves to the invading Israelites, not as nearby neighbors, but as distant foreigners who lived in a far-off land. Such a shame to destroy it all! This does not make any sense. WebThe Lord answered, Saul and his family of murderers are the reason for this shortage, because he killed the Gibeonites. 2 Samuel 21:1 American Standard Version (ASV) 1 And there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David sought the face of Jehovah. Evidently, that is what he did. Why was David so loyal to Saul after everything Saul had done to him? He keeps his word even to his own disadvantage and does not change it [for his own benefit] (Psalm 15:1, 4; AMP). I want you to understand where Barry was coming from in writing the note. So Joshua made peace with them, and made a covenant with them to let them live; and the rulers of the congregation swore to them. By this time, having fought all his life since he was a teenagerup against Goliath when he was eighteen or soand here he was approaching 70 years old, and he was tired. II Samuel 21:1-2 Now there was a famine in the days of David for three years, year after year; and David inquired of the LORD. At most it was about ten miles awaynot very far at all. The Israelites had taken an oath concerning them, but in his zeal for Israel and Judah, Saul had sought to kill them.) Deep and long lasting trouble for both parties - both the Israelites and the Gibeonites - was the fruit of this clever, but calamitous deception. However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee.". And Agag, he's a nice guy! And the Lord said, "There is bloodguilt on Saul and on his house, because he put the Gibeonites to death. Evidently, he thought that he could win back his kingdom if he zealously did God's will. Then we have the explanations of which we just went over. WebTheir apostasy began with the Hivites from Gibeon, and in time, the leaven slowly spread. ", Or even after two years. We know that you said not to make a covenant with the people the land. Who was the father of Mephibosheth? They handed their enemies hard, stale, moldy bread and told them it had been freshly baked when they left home. God extends blessings far farther into the future than He does the curses. King David came at it from a position of weakness, not of one who knew God's law and could answer these people from spiritual strength. Something is wrong, David. (Matthew 14:1921). The Israelite version was a whole lot less absolute. David asked the Gibeonites what punishment would satisfy them and atone for (cover) Sauls sin of murder. What is meaning of 2 Cor. He allowed his actions to be dictated by the Gentile principle of retributionvengeancerather than God's law on such matters. So he did to them, and delivered them out of the hand of the children of Israel, so that they did not kill them. Then, I am sure, he started to think about other things that were happening, and he started to make some reforms in himself. But so did David. And they went to Joshua, to the camp at Gilgal, and said to him and to the men of Israel, "We have come from a far country; now therefore, make a covenant with us. To put it in a more modern time setting, a lot of people prefer Batman (the dark one), or Spiderman (the geek), to Superman for the very same reasons. They agree to the death of seven of Saul's descendants. How much food did Jesus produce? Share Does the Bible encourage the practice of Lent? (4:10). Skeptic turned believer, Catholic, father of 3, ABC/DTS graduate, guitar music ministry Baptist church. He did not negotiate at all. Saul committed a great crime against Gibeon and the Gibeonites. Moreover you shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death [he cannot buy his way out]. He got a little weird, throwing spears at David (and Jonathan too, once). There should have been payment for it. And David sought the face of the Lord. Is there something I'm missing? Joshua 9:14 is the key to Israel's problem. THE BATTLES OF THE LORD When did Saul kill these Gibeonites? That would be a town in Benjamin just north of Jerusalem. So, he kept his own covenant, but he did not go any further to figure out from God's law to know what should be done in this situation. So they thought, "Hmm. Were they participants in killing the Gibeonites? So he said, "Whatever you say, I will do for you." Therefore, there was a different system of justice than what the Gentiles were used to. I think he was very low. Just tell me and I will do it for you.. WebTranslation Details for 2 Samuel 21:1 Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. Joshua 9:3-6 But when the inhabitants of Gibeon heard what Joshua had done to Jericho and Ai, they worked craftily [remember that], and went and pretended to be ambassadors. THE STORY OF THE GIBEONITES - Another group, however, argues that as God's anointed king, God would have said, "Kill them all!" II Samuel 21:7 But the king spared Mephibosheth the son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, because of the LORD's oath that was between them, between David and Jonathan the son of Saul. It comes as a snare, Christ says, on everybody. But the consequences of their sinswhat it means to us; what happened because of their sinstill affects us today. WebMany centuries later (the period from the exodus of Israel to the reign of Saul is generally considered to be about 400 years), Saul came to the throne in Israel. I do not know if that was the case, but he had just gone through Absalom's rebellion, and Sheba's rebellion, and maybe he allowed that to cross his mind too. You cannot tell. Things were going wrong. And he gathered an army and attacked the Amalekites, and delivered Israel from the hands of those who plundered them. How many died in bar-fights? It provides the cities of refuge where he could go serve a type of prison sentenceif it was an accidental murderuntil the high priest died. They may not have been involved at all, depending on how early in Saul's reign this event took place. WebThe alliance with the Gibeonites lasted for centuries, until Saul - in his zeal (21, 2) - decided that the ancient covenant was no longer binding. According to a May 2007 George Barna Poll, 63% of Americans, mostly professing Christians, believe that Jesus sinned during His physical life! There are references to the Lord, but they are not references in a spiritual sense. They got a couple of their men, maybe elders, and got them to appear like they came along distance. He became jealous and he went wacko, basically. King David was perhaps the only converted person in the entire nationmaybe besides the high priest of the time, but we do not know. We had before that the episode with Amnon and Tamar. No silver or gold from that house. Hebrews 11 exhibits a whole chapter of men and women just like us who, despite their humanity and frequent foibles, fought the good fight of faith and were victorious in the end through the grace of God. God was not in all his thoughts during this time. Report. You can read about them for yourself in the Book of Joshua, chapters nine and ten. Instead of warfare and bloodshed, their weapons were guile and deceit. There is a very important difference. What do we do in a time of spiritual famine? This is in the second commandment. God did not necessarily overlook all their sins, but He certainly forgave them. Sheba's rebellion is in the previous chapter, II Samuel 20. Lets be clear from the very beginning, David was kind to Mephibosheth for his father Jonathans sake (2 Samuel 9:1). Mephibosheth was only five ye We want them to reflect what a real person would do in extreme or extraordinary circumstances. They were probably innocent of this particular crime. See? The two hints are that Saul and his house had a reputation for violence"Saul and his bloodthirsty house." Share There were no conditions. WebSaul, Israel's first king thought he knew better than God. And then King David inquired of the Lord. Her actions made David realize that he had violated another of God's commands by leaving the bodies of Saul, Jonathan, and the seven other sons unburied. The Gibeonites joined in the fight against the Philistines B. He decided to let the Gibeonites dictate everything. Now, we move forward, not very long in time, to Joshua 9. And with what shall I make atonement, that you may bless the inheritance of the LORD? He shall receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation" Psalm 24:4-5. II Samuel 21:1-14 Now there was a famine in the days of David for three years, year after year; and David inquired of the L ORD. Some unfinished business here needs to be taken care of. Vote Up But it appears at least 40, maybe 50 years in the past. Those who believe that they can outsmart, outflank or in any way outmaneuver our Enemy through cerebral strategies are doomed to the slavery and destruction heaped upon Saul and the Gibeonites. Saul, Israel's first king thought he knew better than God. So, give or take, 40 to 50 years have passed. God sent the rain, it says specifically, "from heaven," verse 10, "in the latter rains," which is their normal cycle. David didnt get the throne until Saul and Jonathon were both dead. David was anointed king many years before he took the throne. He had Saul tryin That generation had begun to pass. Today, I want to visit one of King David's lesser-known black marks, and draw some lessons from it at the end. He was setting us an example of what we should be doing in a spiritual sense. ESV - I think that this was a test from God, and David failed spectacularly, except in keeping his promise to Jonathan. So David asked the Lord for help, and the Lord answered, Saul and his family are guilty of murder, because he had the Gibeonites killed. They were going to come in there and just exterminate. Also David seems to have only spared Mephibosheth only because he made an oath, and not for the fact that he was only five years old and did not participate in killing the Gibeonites? In reading the Psalms, on the other hand, we get an idea of just how grateful he was for God's forgiveness and grace, because I believe he was aware of just what a rotten individual he really was. They didn't present themselves in a truthful light saying that they were neighbors who respected Israel's strength and godly advantage and were suing for peace. You are getting later and later in David's life here. 0 responses WebThe LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites. The choice by Adam and Eve in the garden was a sin, and they paid for it through death. The famine was a punishment for Sauls violation of the covenant, made with the Gibeonites back during the days of Joshua. He wanted to go do something else. WebAnd the Lord answered, Saul and his family of murderers are the reason for the famine, because he killed the Gibeonites. 2 (The Gibeonites were not Israelites. And if He sinned, then He could not be our Savior. It's much too heavy any more!" ", If you are on your spiritual game, and famine is occurring in your land, do you wait three years until thousands may have died? Report, September 02 2013 I do not think that King David thought through the implications of this matter very well. David was Born Mar 2, 2022 A three-year famine occurs as a result of Sauls attack on the Gibeonites Mar 2, 2022. More to the north-northwest hand over his own soldiers had to tell him, and them! A real person would do in extreme or extraordinary circumstances they are not references a. `` I ca n't when did saul attack the gibeonites this thing he wanted the power of Israel 's problem of and... Consequences and effects of Saul 's reign this event took place asked the.. 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