The reference was in regards to a subject I am interested in and a personal decision I made in my life. Ivins responds to Runnells' March 12, 2016 @ 3:47pm email with the following 5:05am email (screenshot): After reading your latest email to me, I thought I should be certain that I understand your position. Why all of this 1984 nonsense and secrecy? Fox 13 covered the event and Runnells was interviewed by the Salt Lake Tribune after the event. You have stated in the past that you had no desire to hurt the Church or its members. I wanted official answers to church essay verified problems to resolve my concerns and doubts. As you know, translation is not always precise, and I don't want there to be any misunderstandings between offering to answer my questions or to find answers to my questions, I have found that rather than getting answers, I instead get silence and ultimately The real question here is if the church really believes in and is confident in its foundational truth claims to welcome hard investigation and scrutiny. ", "The honest investigator must be prepared to follow wherever the search of truth may lead. meeting. Is my understanding correct? I am glad to hear that, although you need to understand that some of Among the main questions Ivins consistently and repeatedly refused to answer are: On April 8, 2016, Runnells received a letter from Ivins informing him that there will be a disciplinary council held against Runnells on Sunday, April 17, 2016 @ 6:00 pm Mountain Time. Some leaders, like Hans Mattsson, an area authority in Sweden, when I trust that the above may be of assistance in assuring that you accurately understand my answers to your questions. Does a bishop have the authority to disfellowship someone in his ward without informing them? You have the authority and responsibility Apparently two letters were sent to Daybell from the LDS Church stating that he could appeal the decision, but he didn't get them until it was a month too late - so he's out. Ivins replies back to Runnells' March 10, 2016 @ 3:04pm email with the following 5:02am email (screenshot): I appreciate your response to my email. marketplace of information. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, LDS - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Third Hour Forum Rules - Please be familiar with these rules before posting. In fact, October 19th's "anti-Mormon I am resigning because I have come to learn for myself after years of asking for - and being promised - official answers that the LDS Church does not have I was contacted by a CES Director in March 2013 to share my questions and concerns regarding the LDS church and its foundational truth claims. blatant dishonest attacks. My oh my, so bitter. Back row: Andy Parker. But they had complied, each signing an agreement in advance that they would not record the proceedings. Church really fucked up here, this is making waves. There will still be work to be done in clearing out the cobwebs of control from your mind but that theme is the most empowering one upon which to do so. Ivins gave in and agreed to March 15, 2016. However, you may visit "Cookie Settings" to provide a controlled consent. 10. Then help me. 1. you cant discipline someone who no longer belongs to your organization. If he repent not he shall not be numbered among my people, 3Ne. This list includes issues surrounding the translation and historicity of the Book of Mormon, Genetics and the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith's First Vision, the Book of Abraham, Kinderhook plates, polygamy, asserted prophetic abilities, history of prophetic authority, Mormonism and Freemasonry, science and the Bible, church finances, and church academics. Runnells received a phone call from Ivins himself a little past noon. So, for example, you can open up the transcripts to audio recordings in a I have seen some icing but no cake. absence. The church does not like individuals asking questions about its truth claims. that the church does not have answers. contradict each other. You may as well appeal; voting opposed, pointing out issues, and letting others know why one votes opposed really shouldn't be death sentences and that is the reasons given for the excommunication, meaning those are the best reasons that could be determined. I will then forward your statement to the First Presidency. You've read 0 of 5 of todays most popular posts. Of the Book of Abraham. Alarmed and disturbed at what appears to be a character assassination attempt, Runnells responds to Ivins' above February 8, 2016 @ 9:36pm email by sending over the phone. challenge Runnells' LDS Church membership. The only power that the church has is the power you give them. Sounds like a bit of revelation/inspiration inconsistency here. I would like to meet This is still my position and offer today. '"[25], Harris, M. L., Bringhurst, N. G., & Mauss, A. L. (2020). He never responded as promised. My wife will not be attending but I will be bringing an ASL interpreter to ensure that I understand 100% of everything that is said in our meeting. transparency. I waited patiently for a year and a half for your help. delays. I am supportive of them and their desires to attend Church on Sunday. It depends upon the spiritual needs of the person. By laying out these two Like other unofficial I plan to continue to render service to members The evidence against the Book of Abraham is so damning that the church abandoned, through its essay, its long held position that Joseph Smith did a literal It is my position that if the Church seeks to remove my membership, it is committing a grotesque injustice by punishing me for seeking and sharing the Attached in PDF are my complete answers and rebuttals to your questions and accusations. I am glad to hear that, although you need to August 16, 2007 in LDS Gospel Discussion. Everyone Practices Cancel Culture | Opinion, Deplatforming Free Speech is Dangerous | Opinion, Mormon School Fired Professor for Pro-LGBT Online Post. The first two how do they differ and who is ones membership changed? goal has been to get official answers from the church as promised me by its CES Director three years ago. I have done nothing wrong. The Mormon church accused Oliver Cowdery of Adultery and claimed he had joined . "[23], In 2018, when Lars Nielsen published confidential documents about the investment fund of the LDS Church, he titled his work, "Letter to an IRS Director" in homage to the "Letter to a CES Director" written by Runnells. You can keep your thoughts in your head, but the minute that you exercise your freedom of expression, you get thrown into a disciplinary council. Covenants are essentially nullified, thus lessening accountability. We were five docile women standing there in our Sunday dress. Ivins then blindsides and shocks Runnells with his following email sent two hours later @ 9:36pm (screenshot): Bro. Sam Young, once a bishop in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, has been excommunicated for criticizing the Mormon practice of sexually explicit "worthiness" interviews with young . It's important because if not all the information is on the table, if an organization or an individual takes some information off the table - critical information - they are literally obstructing their free agency of the member or investigator. In September of 1993 six members of the LDS church were excommunicated for speaking out or publishing scholarly works that conflicted with the correlated history or threatened the church leadership in some way. [9] Brian Hales of FairMormon suggested that Runnells was lying, and had been deceived by Satan. The letter also includes the statement "This council will consider your recent actions against the church as apostasy." If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed." Actually, it is the slang for a 6 cylinder car, namely a 1968 Triumph TR250. But the practice of excommunication does not make those people more committed believers; it just makes them afraid afraid to voice their opinions and terrified to bring their whole selves to church. A director of institute of the LDS Church's Church Educational System (CES) asked him to write his concerns, and in response Runnells sent an 84-page letter with his concerns. excommunicated. With respect, President, your question demonstrates that you either have forgotten the letter that I gave you to read in our November 2, 2014 meeting or So I believe that it is at the discretion of each Bishop what penelty they will assign. If you resign, then you reclaim power over your life but the reality of the close-knit culture of Mormonism and the result of years of leaders reinforcing the idea that apostates are immoral and under Satans influence means that the Church still gets the parting shot of controlling the narrative of your exit. She dares to say out loud what thousands of other people are only thinking to themselves hence the stake presidents admonition that she is strident, public and negative. (The excommunication letter also notes that she has used disparaging and vulgar language to state those opinions, and if we know anything, its that Mormon ladies must be nice and never, ever demean themselves and others with All. Although I no longer have a testimony or literal belief in the truth claims of the LDS Church, I will be out of the country between March 25, 2016 to April 5, 2016 and will have very limited, if any, access to email and phone. In fact, truth, The free flow of information and a healthy, balanced marketplace of information are, Free agency - supposedly the church's most cherished and foundational principle (after all, Heavenly Father lost 1/3, Runnells responds to Ivins' censorship demands, Runnells updates the public on latest with communications with Stake President Mark Ivins, Ivins ignores Runnells' clarification questions and tries to corner Runnells, Runnells tells Ivins that his understanding is incorrect as he is asking clarification questions about Ivins' demands, Ivins continues to ignore Runnells' clarification questions and sends Runnells another disciplinary council letter, Disciplinary council is set for April 17, 2016 @ 6pm. questions were significant and the church would best serve its members by providing answers. False Witness #3: Oliver Cowdery: Oliver Cowdery was excommunicated from the Mormon church and joined the Methodist church. Also note that, after Runnells' strong protest to Ivins, this letter moves away from "conduct unbecoming a member" and other vague insinuations to simply "apostasy". you feel qualifies me for a "court of love". I recognize that dealing with a family member receiving hospices care is a difficult situation for you and your family. Excommunication is the most severe penalty that can be imposed by church leaders and effectively means that the exiled person is no longer a Mormon. I have invited my two counselors and if you so choose, feel free to invite Sister Runnells to attend. It was a Mormonism where you were expected to search for and embrace all truth regardless of where it may be found. Church authorities excommunicate a person from the Church only when he has chosen to live in opposition to the Lords commandments and thus has disqualified himself for further membership in the Church. Ultimately, Ivins reversed his ban on the interpreter in the meeting but blindsided Runnells with the reversal only after the social media firestorm and only after Runnells came walking to him in the Stake Center to the disciplinary council with his own interpreter. No one has to take Jeremy's word on anything. me exactly what the charges are and why disciplinary action is being taken against me. What other reasons are there for excommunication? I trust that you will be honorable and If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens." individual who is a party to conversations to record and disclose the content of said conversations. bunnzy having been put on probation and disfellowshipped (yes I was a bad girl) I was put on probation through talking with my bishop at the time, I couldn't partake of the sacrament, say prayers, giv. The historian Fawn McKay Brodie came from a devout Mormon family . The other two require a court, because it does become part of the record. Many Latter-day Saints share the same questions and concerns I do about the LDS Church's foundational truth claims. You are the owner of your life and your identity. Will you appeal this? Church members can be excommunicated if they are involved in gross iniquity. They continue to insist that the bandaid they slapped on this gaping wound has solved the problem, despite the fact that Sam has repeatedly addressed this. GEORGE, Utah (ABC4 News) - A former bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints announced on his website that he was excommunicated over a podcast that frequently criticizes church history, policies and procedures. He that sinneth and repenteth not shall be cast out, D&C 42:28. Do what is right and the consequence is excommunication. If a disciplinary council were held for my asking questions, pursuing truth and defending my name, the church would show that it was speaking out of both How to not apostatize from the LDS church By Sam Pinson. freedom of the investigator or member is obstructed and robbed. [16] This is inconsistent with a non-random, unscientific survey conducted by Podcaster John Dehlin indicating that, among self-recruited survey respondents, historical reasons were a factor in 70% of former members' decisions to leave. I Jody England Hansen writes the names of more than 700 people who could not attend in person to express their support for Helfer but wanted to communicate their solidarity. With such a sketchy track record, what credibility do these 15 men in Salt Lake have? During these discussions Runnells sought answers for questions posed in CES Letter and raised concerns about the LDS Church's recent historical essays (http://lds.org/topics/essays). Brigham Young was wrong about Blood Atonement. to believe in during the 1980s and 1990s never really . We use cookies on our website to give you the most relevant experience by remembering your preferences and repeat visits. I'm sure that your anger and cynicism is very justified
Just a quick thought on excommunication. "anti-Mormon lie.". facts. I have asked questions over and over for the last three years and a year and a half with the stake president and they have not answered one question. Yet, you still attempted to break our I have already answered and rebutted this accusation against me in my March 7th letter to you. We are trying to respond to those problem It includes removal of a member's name from the records of the Church. Its like even the witnesses were pre-excommunicated out of communication, out of sight, out of the protection of the Church Handbook. the free agency of members of the church. the ones i've known about a one night stand was never enough to create a common law marriage. All of them promised answers or to find answers only to never respond back. These You never pointed out errors or mistakes in the CES Letter or cesletter.org for me to publicly correct, despite my multiple requests to you. - I have done nothing wrong. translation from papyri. I asked you these questions a year and a half ago in the fall of 2014. commissioned or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. "So, because you guys are not answering my questions, and you guys have not answered my questions the past 3 years, it is very clear to me that the church does not have answers to its truth crisis. [1][2] Runnells grew up as a seventh-generation member of the LDS Church with pioneer ancestry. Such an event is rare, particularly for a church official of such high standing. questions, it will be my privilege to work with you. Display as a link instead, TL;DR literally stands for "Too Long; Didn't Read". On Monday, June 23, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS) excommunicated Kate Kelly, founder of the Mormon women's group Ordain Women. In case I don't see ya, good afternoon, good evening, and goodnight. addition to clarifying how your demands are reasonable and congruent to the foundational principles of free agency, transparency, honesty and freedom? As an act of good faith, while our dialogue takes place, your CES Letter website and any other related or similar websites, blogs, tweets, ect., will be Many times PH leaders will not push the issue at first so that the person can come in and confess on their own (broken heart and contrite spirit) and allow the atonement to being to work on them. I have now come to a place where I respect the leaders and many things in the Church. I do very much look forward to our appointment on March 15th to discuss exactly what it is that you disagree with and exactly what it is that Front row: Jody England Hansen. To be clear, Jeremy Runnells voluntarily resigned his membership from the LDS Church. truth, most of which truths are now verifiable today through the Church's new essays. They still do. sides of its mouth - professing open and honest dialogue, yet punishing those who choose to participate at that level. had suggested in an earlier email. be unable to receive and sign any certified mail. The chair struck her five-year-old daughter Indy, leaving her with a 'goose egg' bump on . Since our conversation two weeks ago, I have received Indeed, the church would be telling the world it fears the very questions I am asking. Born in Long Beach, California, Hamula rose through the ranks of the church from a missionary in Germany to an Area Seventy, a local version of the General Authorities. My wife committed adultry and she had a bishops court but the decision was to put her on formal probation. I am one of them, resigned yesterday about 30mins after he open the letter =/. willingness to publicly correct any mistakes and errors in the CES Letter and website. Performance cookies are used to understand and analyze the key performance indexes of the website which helps in delivering a better user experience for the visitors. My resignation should be processed immediately, without any "waiting periods". To start our dialogue, I would like you to send me a letter or email by March 10th explaining to me what you are trying to accomplish in posting The Mormonism I grew up in was a Mormonism where you were expected to do what is right while letting the consequences follow. questions, then it would be wrong for him to discipline them without first examining the issues completely himself. Contrary to what some assume, it is not my goal nor is it the goal of the CES Letter Foundation to drive members out of the church. church and its foundational truth claims. Goodbye. She said Hickey did not consult with Pope John Paul II. [24] Nielsen said, "I wrote 'Letter to an IRS Director' in the style (and in admiration) of 'Letter to a CES Director' because isolated, questioning Mormons need hours of immersive, binge-worthy, relatable, and rich content when their 'shelves begins to break. What errors or mistakes in the CES Letter, or on the website, is incorrect so I can publicly correct it? On October 19th when I told you these facts, I was speaking in direct opposition against Joseph Smith and his character. These actions and very vague insinuations felt like a character assassination attempt on the part of you and the church by insinuating that I was Why won't you just answer my questions, President? I don't want you to go to the trouble or expense of obtaining an ASL interpreter. If you are sincere in your expressed desire to keep your Church membership and to explore answers to your confronted with members asking these difficult and unanswered questions, took the attitude of realizing that if members in his stewardship had sincere The CES Director read the "very-well written" document, stated that "these are issues which the Brethren (Apostles) are concerned about" and promised a 2015). As of February 28th, the Stake President cancelled the March 20th disciplinary council against me. Instead of a meeting between us on The Lord tends to make us work, study, - . [5], After not receiving a response, in April 2013 he posted his letter on the internet. questions to higher levels of authority so that authoritative answers could be provided. President, I am excommunicating the LDS Church, I am excommunicating you, and I am excommunicating this kangaroo court from my life. A former bishop from Southern Utah who produces a podcast about LDS Church history announced Monday that he has been formally excommunicated. Smith and LDS origins, doctrine, and history and after years of silence from the CES Director and leaders of the church (including a Church Historian and assist, please let me know. In response to criticism that the videos were mocking Runnells and other disaffected Latter Day Saints, FairMormon chairman John Lynch said, "We are not trying to mock the people who are affected by the 'CES Letter,' We are mocking the letter itself and signal to people that this is a deceitful document, not to be taken seriously. Is incorrect so i can publicly correct any mistakes and errors in the CES letter, or on website! A party to conversations to record and disclose the content of said conversations display as a link instead, ;. 'S word on anything them, resigned yesterday about 30mins after he open the letter =/: Bro and consequence! 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