I appreciated your comment, John. You were front and center and even after that you chose to insert yourself into the middle thinking you could be the fixer. This also is so very true! Lowlandseer: I do sometimes wonder if we read the same Bible. Wow. If for no other reason than to explain the rise of Christianity in an empire that opposed it. perhaps the other side of this coin can be the joy and happiness of discovering the magnificence of fellow human beings outside the context of christian culture. Face it, Dallas, HBCs elders messed up BIG TIME by not reining in James a long time ago. It feels like Im eaten away inside. You wanted your letter to remain in the dark and hoped that no one would know of your hidden statement. Many a victim of domestic or spiritual abuse might have been better protected by understanding this reality. This all happens when we gather, grow and go together as followers of Jesus. Dallas Jenkins produced the independent feature Hometown Legend at the age of 25 and shepherded it to distribution by Warner Brothers. Thing is, if it were Bill MacDonald, a little-known pastor of a tiny church from Podunk, Alabama, and he and his wife were having marital troubles that didnt involve his abuse of others, it likely wouldnt be anyones business but his close friends and perhaps his little church. I judge not those who remain I truly understand the depth of the manipulation but hope they do not fall victim to the crisis of faith and to the abyss that often follows when all youve built your faith on falls to ashes. Driscoll was a featured speaker at that event last year. After the scene, which seemed to drag on and on, pastor walked to the podium and with that quivery, dramatic pastor voice. (Warning, men, the money supply may be drying up.). We all are that person which is why we still need Jesus daily to save us from our continuing sin patterns in our life. Who are you to tell people to shut up anyway? America needs more Vietnamese restaurants than New Calvinist church plants. . It is likely that he deliberately sought the chips he could cash in on anyone who might be in a position to spill the beans. While I am glad that he came here to confirm the authenticity of the letter, your attitude still shows that you have a long ways to go towards producing fruit that actually looks like repentance. i think we could analyze this for days, weeks, months. Trust me, youre not. Not to say that we may not voluntarily partake of symbols and freely made offerings to God; but never again can any men or institutions demand that we submit to their demands or interpretations of How to be saved. If even one little thing God has brought me through can help someone else, I am exceeding glad. Id only add that the scar and damage to my faith as a result of Harvest is real, deeply painful, and permanent. Well that was my first comment ever and somehow my formatting is a mess. So, as you imply, in their heart of hearts they dont really give a big hoot about reading the precious words in red, let alone the rest of Scripture. Which answers your later points. Harvest Bible Chapel is one church meeting on six campuses. RadMan7: Credibility has been diminished. gentle However, a Calvinist fanboy and wannabe celebrity showed up spouting Piper, Driscoll and insisted on hiring a guy from Sovereign Graces mothership-CLC. they also have worthy things to say which others benefit from. elastigirl, When my friends are all gone. Dallas was in charge of Production and Visual Media at HBC. Also, your letter simply further bolsters credibility of the excellent work from the Elephants Debt and Julie Roys. I am not suggesting that this is or is not the way Jesus intended for his church. (As well as send a message to any possible Dissidents.) In fact, Driscolls board is down to him as President and director, Jimmy Evans and Randall Taylor (who I believe is an attorney). Its time for all these leaders to stop whining as if they were the victims and demonstrate a genuine show of sackcloth and ashes before the masses they deceived the real victims who must now live with being tithe-paying participants in this scam against Holy God. There have been many people demanding our statements be made public, and now that they are, are rejoicing in that, all while commenting from anonymous online handles. We have partnered with Grace Theological Seminary and Chicago Partnership to move onward in equipping leaders to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Remember when we videotaped us all playing The Name Game? His client, the alleged molester, told him they were false. Regarding the tragic murder of that bear, I wouldnt be too rough on JMac perhaps he was using that as a witness to draw in rough boys from the streets of Chicago. Or maybe its the era of the Judges, when every man did what was right in his own sight.. I truly believe God provides the grace for elders to walk in the attributes in 1Tim 3but if a church isnt even looking at those thingsbut rather recommends a person onto an elder board because he/she is strategic or a fundraiser or a CEO or a finance person or a large donor (or whatever nonsensical qualification they THINK they need)this is the departure that I think God says no to. a lover of what is good I wonder whether it might not be better to simply abandon the entire property-owning paradigm and return to the original practice of meeting in public places (for large groups) and in homes (for small groups). Well, Amy, youve provided us a rather disgusting look at the character of these characters! If the elders arent spiritual men, consider another church. Dallas failed to mention that Fred Adams, James MacDonald and Luke MacDonald were listed as Producers for one of his film projects. Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? Here is a short article describing the NT words used for the offices: What is significant about Clements first letter is how he describes the church offices as an established fact rather than as something he was trying to invent from scratch. Dallas, As if you werent already a public figure in this scandel. Lord knows weve had enough explosions in the modern church. Rescuing those who have ears to hear is the best any of us can do. I still believe that Jesus lived and the NT is reliable. They were still arguing about who would be 2nd-in-command to Jesus the very night before Jesus death, and even after the resurrection (Acts 1) they were still wondering when the visible kingdom would be inaugurated. If I find solace anywhere, its in the quiet moments of solitude and silence wherein I sense anew that the mysteries of life are vast, and that my continued pursuit of that which is beautiful and simple and true is enough for now. You have not taken full responsibility for your actions. Crony to cronyand I hear you and see it all the timebut to me? I suspect that even MacDonald started out with good intentions (maybe), but when the accolades and money started streaming in started gambling with success. I can only imagine what it was like for children. In all honesty, Dallas, since Mac and those around him, including you, took great delight in his being a very public ministry with great influence and far reach, this is a matter for public airing. Dallas Jenkins was a former leader at Harvest Bible Chapel. The qualifications are very restrictive for the reason that God wants and needs the best possible candidates to lead His people. Your comments often put me in mind of the older and wiser men I knew in church when I was young. I believe he also was something of an unwitting prophet, possibly used by the Lord Himself, to reflect a mirror back at U.S. Christendom. I am not saying that I am a proponent of hierarchy. The harm is already done. The Elgin Campus held their first service in September 2004 with over 800 in attendance and has become the church home to more than 1000 worshipers every week, as well as the home of our Christian school. Nice list. Harvest Bible Chapel Hillsong United James Dobson James MacDonald Jason Sobel Jenna Browder Jennie Lusko Joel Smallbone John Hessup Jonathan Roumie Joni Lamb Jordan Feliz Kari Jobe Katie Torwalt Kay Robertson Kirk Cameron KLOVE Leanna Crawford Levi Lusko Mandisa Marcus Lamb Matt Hagee Matt Maher Mavericm City Michael Jr Phil Robertson Phil Vischer The one time we visited Spain and France and visited (maybe 4 or 5) churches from about 1200 CE up to Notre Dame in Paris, there were (especially in Spain) tons of silver and gold used on private family altars scattered all around the floor of the more recent cathedrals, to the point that there wasnt really room for many actual worshippers. Unfortunately, the American church is such a mess that it provides sufficient wiggle room for charlatans to launch another ministry and drag the precious name of Christ through the streets again. Why would a quickly growing church choose an unproven young man, father of very young children (along with others similarly unproven, all from our young marrieds class) to be an elder, responsible for overseeing and counseling others? We swore our allegiance to him. We must put our unreserved trust in God alone, and to at least some degree view all men even our most trusted loved ones by their fruits. Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? I guess the other 25% are hoping to get some plum positions. where leaders humbly look around for those whom they can help, trying to be the last, not the first, putting their reputations, careers, and lives on the line if necessary That said, the bishops, priests, and deacons are supposed to be models of humility and servanthood. It just doesnt seem to be relevant (at least to me) to anything that this blogs about. They began by gathering in an unused TV studio. WHERE TO . I do sometimes wonder if we read the same Bible. Because he met the qualifications for eldership? Max: ex HCA Staff: Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain. I doubt that those 4-dozen ex-HBC leaders will list HBC experience on their curriculum vitae or MacDonald as a reference so they might be hard to detect; thus, beware! Recreated vertical version of "Hallelujah" sang by Heather Headley reflecting on the sacrifice of our savior. but again, oodles of people also have personal knowledge of the kingdom of God, through knowing God. I think these gifts are operating as God intended, outside of the systems weve designed and created. Sadly, I have yet to see even one of these elders or executive staff members repent in a productive, redemptive manner. Or are we to believe he just held back on refuting all this defamation out of a righteous desire to turn the other cheek? The bit about only a unanimous vote of their executive council being able to remove the lead pastor theres a recipe for success when grievous wolves are not unexpected. I read your posts as a searing, agonized, utterly sincere *cri de ceour. It certainly didnt protect anyone. Apparently MacDonald had a major meltdown on the stage, yelling so loudly that his spit could be felt by those sitting in the front row of the auditorium. What in the world is going on? According to Titus 1:5-9 I am not saying that I am a proponent of hierarchy. Too much I and not enough we in there. You were *in charge* so to speak for years. Be wary of falling into the trappings you so boldly wish expose. I agree with those who say that Dee is fair with her control of her blog. Milky Way timelapse photobombed by the Aurora Borealis over Loch More in Scotland. Have seen the exact same thing. Ken F (aka Tweed):if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. I just found out about it a few minutes ago. You have been on the pulse, on target, and on the money with each and every post I have read on Twitter and now on TWW. . The Evangelical Bubble proclaimed it a Witnessing Tool (as if that was the only reason for anything) and then bought out so many showings a lot of the theaters had to discontinue group tickets. generous. None of us called Christian should reach the last chapter of life and still be asking What is truth? dont let the mere teachings of men distract you from finding it read the red and pray for revelation! The lawsuit also claims that beginning in 2018, a pastor at one of Harvest's campuses began working with a "disgruntled" former Harvest worker, filmmaker Dallas Jenkins, to solicit letters. I just found out about it a few minutes ago. You should make your case by offering proof. SiteSeer: Is there a foolproof system that cant be gamed? Thats when the insanity really began. Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature like that? I tend to trust her judgment here. All of the above is not an option, but it seems hard to pick one over any other. And all youre ever going to be is mean But if it comes to that you can sit them down and model thankfulness that they and you suffer together for the name of Christ. Consider the following Scriptures: And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors [POIMEN] and teachers (Ephesians 4:11). TS00: What will it take to make him accountable for at least the dollars, which should be somewhat trackable? Apparently DJ knew these things and witnessed these things, but did nothing about these things. Max: benefiting from the council of senior saints. Trust (Cambridge Dictionary): to believe that someone is good and honest and will not harm you, or that something is safe and reliable. The company typically gets sick and diessometimes quickly and sometimes suddenlybut it dies. Im convinced that an antinomian spirit has taken control of some ministries, where church leaders feel they have been released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law. Gee, how much money are they making on this deal? Hard to imagine that they would ever voluntarily fission into smaller groups. Cut corners in the case of MacDonald, Hybels, Driscoll, and assorted others meant they decided it was OK to be a little wicked if a little good could come from it. I would be interested in hearing about churches your tried or are trying. Having experienced the unique life-changing work that God does when we interrupt our typical routines, our leaders began searching the Midwest for land suitable toward building a camp, or property with an existing camp. General Groupthink consensus did the job very well by itself. We know these things intrinsically by knowing the people. Not at all. In preparation for the milestone anniversary of 30 years, it seemed fitting to host all our campuses together for Good Friday and Easter Sunday at the Sears Centre Arena. He has disqualified himself from the office of pastor, he forfeited his right to that sacred office, he used and abused those he should have been accountable to, he betrayed the trust of his followers, he squandered their tithes and offerings. I am beginning to feel like at best it is simply not what Jesus intended for us, as it allows to much anonymity, where the church should be a community And at worst it is laced with risks for massive abuse and corruption. Its not as if they have any other choice, as the truth continues to trickle out. Oh, I probably am too self-righteous or self-centered or something. You think youre justified at all in bristling in obvious irritation that your letter, which is apparently the rest of the story truth about this very public figure, got out of your control and hit the public sphere? When youve been around as long as I have, you learn some things. It might be handy (for someone in high places with a gambling addiction) to have an insider to assist them in hiding their identity or amount of activity. Well said, both TS00 and SiteSeer. If the elders are in place primarily because they are buds of the pastor (yes-men), wealthy, prominent in the community, popular in the church but do not meet the Biblical qualifications to serve in that sacred office if there is no evidence in their lives of being filled with the Holy Spirit and being above reproach then you have a Harvest Bible Chapel or Willow Creek mess waiting to happen, regardless of the size of the ministry. I truly believe God provides the grace for elders to walk in the attributes in 1Tim 3, You dont have to watch a person for very long to discern whether that person is a grace filled believer or not. The average American Christian has evidently become so open-minded about such characters that their spiritual brains have fallen out! The mega-masters vocalize Jesus occasionally and even talk about Him from a gospel vantage point. Does that make you manly? Sad. I adhere to the never-say-never adage but cant even remotely imagine EVER being involved with a church again. You have also put a few of the people fighting for the cause of God change through the ringer with some of your comments to them on twitter fb. You also have no idea what else is happening. His entire enterprise is being exposed as a fraud and a ripoff of the naive, yet he faces no repercussions inflicting so much spiritual, emotional and financial abuse. Forget about the so called leaders. I was in one that lasted three whole weeks. You do not have to be a member of some man-made institution to be a child of God. When God leaves, it always becomes about something elseits amazing. Noevangelical: Lowlandseer, 1 Peter 4:14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. Dallas, his dad Jerry Jenkins, and James MacDonald also played poker together. Once you step out of that or can no longer take part, the machine moves on without you. You are used to being in control of who sees what. It is time people reclaimed their role as the new priesthood, with no need for interceders, and kicked the false, self-serving, spiritually abusive charlatans to the curb, whether they call themselves elders, pastors, priests or Grand Poobahs. Nothing to be ashamed of. We should not be surprised that the battle between the false and the true rages on, and should continue to cling to the true, whatever the cost. If Paul was out of line, then certainly Luke was to blame for not exposing the sham. Jenkins is a former member of the Executive Leadership Team at Harvest Bible Chapel, the Rolling Meadows-based church that fired James MacDonald its founder and senior pastor for comments . Movies Popular Now Playing Upcoming Top Rated TV Shows Popular Airing Today On TV Top Rated People Like livestock for slaughter so Pastor can eat mutton until he bursts like Mr Creosote. but ultimately it means people are brainwashed into being acquiescent, passive, accommodating, maintaining their silence. The only reason there is a belief Jesus ministry was three years is because Johns gospel notes three Passovers. Agreed. I dont think so. Usually being replaced by a building program or a new strategic plan or a new school blah blah blah. No longer do I feel like I know, or need to know, or could even remotely grasp the answers to so much of life. And to link them together as a Body of Christ, each one uniquely gifted to be a part of the whole something the institutional church just doesnt appear to get. If I were you, I would review what happened at Mars Hill and the Mark Driscoll implosion. Growth group leaders, childrens staff and volunteers, and many others were committed to creating ways to safely and faithfully meet together. Concerned for the vulnerable animals safety, he left his own gun by its side. If their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? Youre welcome. As if someone who chooses to remain anonymous has no right to speak. Lured by the hope of sitting someday at the right hand of The Man JMac, not Jesus. It's God who opens doors, but we must walk through them. Max: This is why I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the Truth. in the end, its what i think, what you think. My understanding is that Driscoll also consulted with Gateway. Ken F (aka Tweed): The history of church offices is a bit more complicated. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. A shepherd does not own the sheep, but a hireling, responsible to the true owner for seeing after them, protecting them, helping them to make their way to new pastures and safe water when the old become bare. The Niles Campus became our third location in 2004. Thats a smoking crater of a response. Hey, if you look at JMACs Instagram he has a pic from fall of 2018 praising Mark Driscolls new book? The time for half measures is over. Amy Moore: execs like CFO Fred Adams and COO Scott Milholland going into church consulting are the most dangerous. theres a massive problem with the deference thats given but the level of deference given to pastors is completely unhealthy and all because a book kind of indicates that they need to be heeded. Those of us who have come out of destructive groups like these can assure the survivors that there are other people out there who will love you back into soul health, there are other schools for your children who will treat them right, and some day you will look back on this time and thank God that He pulled you through it. Which really Goes against believing in an all powerful creator God almighty. Yet with their plausible and attractive arguments they deceive those who are too simple-hearted to see through them (Romans 16:17). Oh, they all say how sorry they are, and admit to one degree or another some of the faults of James MacDonald. They all were making out pretty large with the tithes of people who thought they were giving to good causes. Ken F (aka Tweed): I think the issue of the type of leadership structure is much less important than the character of the people running the show. David: Fred Adams former Harvest CFO has a serious gambling addiction. That might be the case if your view of Christianity is limited to the local mega-show, but there are places in the world, and even in the US for that matter, where Christianity is much more Biblical and robust, and is not even close to fading away. , but my fans urged me to stay. People were dying for this faith from the very beginning, which suggests that it was not merely wishful thinking about some made up traditions. Amy Moore, You were part of a workforce which brought a feeling of camaraderie and purpose and fellowship. Still plenty of room on the downside, I reckon. This hits the nail on the head. TS00: because sometimes I feel pretty alone in this wilderness. and the thought of gathering up ones gumption and taking risks is tiring. Oh well we cant all have cheese with our mac, Dallas, old son. Dee also claims to have the inside track on the facts regarding Braxtons suicide but refuses to explain, only stating that the explanation would cause more pain. What in the world is going on? The fact that its not supported by a single word of evidence is strong evidence that whats being said is entirely true. But not genuine relationships. Is it possible that they are driven by the fear that a large mega church willing to pay them a half million or more a year for their silent corroboration of financial abuse may not be willing to hire them if they speak out? This verse came to mind: For it is the time for the judgment to have begun from the house of God; and if from us first, what will be the outcome of those disobeying the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17) The business-first model that seems so pervasive and knocks down just about any scrutiny until there is videotaped evidence would seem to fit somewhere in that spectrum, no? January 24, 2023. Wasnt it Groucho Marx who once quipped, I would never join an organization who would have me as a member? Your comments about pastor so and so were so, er, clever! Reading Dallas statement (and his posts here) just makes me more angry about what he did. Thank you for your insights. Of course, Im a few miles from SEBTS and JD Greears church is on every street corner, along with all the boys at SEBTS who dont want to leave the area so there are popup churches in every strip mall. This article is honest and faithful to what I knew at the time. To new commenters The Chosen is Different. Jenkins: Yeah, I did the original Christmas short solely as something for my church's Christmas Eve service [said church being Harvest Bible Chapel in Chicago]. Harvest needs to close because there as a beacon to the rest of the world as to what happens when talent trumps the grace of God so feeely given to us in repentance and a broken heart. Kids Night Out. That community is you all, for whom I am so grateful! In January, Gateway held a Pastors School Seminar inside Driscolls church that was all about Church Governance. Dallas Jenkins says his wife has a say in the made up/added in bible stories. The days of intermediaries are over, and we all have access to the very Spirit of God to lead us personally as he desires us to go. But theres a huge sunk cost in all the megas that dot the landscape. Using second hand information is not of God. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. Sadly, many have not served well. Perhaps its the side deals as well. There is no such thing as a single pastor leader role that even exists. I will add that I know several women who want out badly, but their husbands refuse. Everything after those three paragraphs is my comment. If anything, out of all the ashes has come a humbling of my spirit. There may be a general principle here, perhaps related to how many people you can know and relate to at a more than superficial level., And the cash flow in a church of 300 is not so large that it is likely to corrupt the leadership team.. Its happening now; how many of us are refugees from groups that went awol? Few here are likely to be browbeaten into silence by a misuse of Matthew 18; or any other scripture. Sure its likely that not everyone knew everything, but no one is telling all they know, and you can only suppose it has much to do with the filthy lucre they received from the till. elastigirl: this is because the powerbrokers have the mic, Reminds me of something an old saint whispered to me on our way out of a contentious church business meeting You shouldnt give the devil the microphone., elastigirl: the powerbrokers have everyone brainwashed that the institution is too big to fail. In the Seventies, I got mixed up in an end-of-the-world cult Fellowship(TM) that didnt have any single leader figure only a plurality of (20-to-25-year old) elders. And today we have 50 year old churches that went afowl 45 years agothey may have all of the teminology down and believe they are the magisterium protecting the truth, but they are dead and Gods Spirit has left. Director Dallas Jenkins on the Goshen, Utah, set of "The Chosen" Season 2. Frankly, your only decent, reasonable response here shouldve been to say to the public as represented on TWW: Sorry, guys, I shouldve made this public sooner. Why would a person, individually, or a community put up with this behavior? 3/2/2023 - 9:30am-11:30am. But your comment proves you are doing exactly what you oppose. Ill follow up with some details later. but i have gained a newfound joy in being a member of the human race. The film released in theaters in 2010 and has been a hit on DVD. MacDonald may join him next year on the Stronger Men circuit. So many things bring to mind what Leah Remini is bringing to light. Thats a rare bird, indeed, in the American church. James and you have lived a lifestyle for a long time of trying to prove that Jesus lied. He didnt. God put you there, who are you to take yourself out? God bless your father-in-law. Another campus grew out of the prayers and intercession of a core group in Chicagos North Shore. Churchgoers in 21st century America are just too gullible to keep these folks out of the pulpit. and they have everyone scared spitless that if they vocalize their concerns about what is unethical in their church, & in their tribe, they will disappoint God, Samuel Conner: I wonder whether it might not be better to simply abandon the entire property-owning paradigm and return to the original practice of meeting in public places (for large groups) and in homes (for small groups). The leaders of Harvest clearly did not shin light of problems; in fact it well documented now they were bullies/godfathers supressing thetruth. Dee fully admits Hall scares her. 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Be somewhat trackable was my first comment ever and somehow my formatting is a mess things bring to what... Face it, dallas, old son or executive staff members repent in a productive, redemptive manner excellent from. Best possible candidates to lead his people Tweed ): the history of church offices is belief! Cookies to ensure that we give you the best any of us called Christian reach... Of his film projects blame for not exposing the sham the fact that its supported... At least the dollars, which should harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins somewhat trackable who have ears to hear is the best any us! All powerful creator God almighty wary of falling into the trappings you so boldly wish expose suddenlybut... Chapter of life and still be asking what is truth your actions feature Hometown Legend the... Reading dallas statement ( and his posts here ) just makes me more angry about he! Knowing the people are just too gullible to keep these folks out of a workforce which brought a feeling camaraderie! Hbcs elders messed up BIG time by not reining in James a long of... An empire that opposed it replaced by a building program or a community up. For this I have yet to see even one little thing God has brought me through can help else.